Thank you Sister Hanna, sorry for taking such a long time to get back online here with the A.O.C.I.
I have missed you all so very much, though you all have been in my devotions all this time.
I can appreciate your statement and I see your point as well. Yes, I am also sure that for every context I make in proving my point here, you shall be able to do the same. That just goes to show that the scriptures mean different things to different folks. It is a matter of the Christian faith and the faithful going down “denominational” or even “traditional”, paths of doctrine.
If this were not so, than justify to me why Christianity being “the largest religious belief system in the world with more than 2.2 billion people world wide and, that of Christianity it’s self with more than 33,820 different denominations”. So which of the is right and which is wrong? That is to say they all read and preach from the same book don’t they? How then can we as “Christians”, judge one another for a doctrine or belief or even, lack of doctrine that excepts and professes the same writings of the inspired word of God?
Don’t worry, I’m not setting anyone up to argue one point or another. What I will say is that I believe in the same scriptures as the next person, it is neither ludicrous nor any more dangerous than the other beliefs. Meaning again, that it is left to “interpretation”. As an example of which I am sure, I’m going to press more than a few buttons when I state this but, I hope it will open the heart and minds of clergy that have taken the “hard line of indoctrination to an extreme to their congregations. My example is this and I’ll try to be fair and open minded when I say this because it is a stretch to even put them into the same category of “Christian Faith”.
OK, take a deep breath now, let it out slowly, and here goes. In the deep south here in the USA over our history as a nation, or even throughout the worlds history there have been 10’s of thousands of incidents documented throughout, but I will refrain and restrain myself to American history and that being an example of the black church congregations preaching from the KJV of the Holy Bible as well as say, members of the “KKK’, which drew their rhetoric from the same book. Yet lets bring the time line up a bit and, remind folks that racial tensions were still prevalent almost 100 years later, in the 1950’s and 60’s, when segregation was at an all time high in this country. We believed in the promises of the same scripture then, didn’t we? Though if you want to say that, then that was the dark days of our history. I might give you that, but I would again remind you that of even more recent history being that we have had church burnings, people beaten, communities in an upheaval, and yet we still all read from the same scripture.
I guess you could say it’s not the same thing, that some groups of “Christians are more radical than others and yet some are more passive than others”. Then in that case, I would have to say you are correct again. BUT, (I just love that word, that and the one call if), they both are the two most misused words in the English language. Well, I’ve said it once I’ve said it a thousand times and that is that it is the clergies fault. And yes I resemble the remark and NO, I’m not point the proverbial finger at any one denomination but I am pointing three of them back at myself. That is to say for sitting in a building week after week, month after month and year after year in a pew called a church and then having someone I was always taught that they were an expert on the subject of Christian values, preaching doctrine to me until I was old enough to understand for myself the error of most every denomination of Christianity in the world.
That is all 33 plus thousand of them and some 14 thousand here in the good old U. S. of A. Please, I don’t sit back and just think up this stuff up, I do however, sit back and try to make since of the world religions and why one thinks they have all the right answers while all others, are doomed to spend an eternity in the fiery pit of hell for not believing the same things that another does.
Isn’t this very thing still happening today? One might say yes, while another, will say no. But (there’s that little word again), but, I say we need more diversity in our congregations, we need to be teaching the scriptures that relate to tolerance and the “love thy neighbor as they self teachings. Granted, there is a “war” going on with the sides being “us against them”, you know what I’m referring to and you can take that anyway you’d like to, (but),…lol…if it looks like a skunk and it smells like a skunk than don’t sit or stand there and tell me that it’s a kitty cat. Because I just might believe you or maybe not. That doesn’t mean that I want to harm you or your family or even your country. Just because I don’t agree with you. It does however mean, that I have a right to “interpret what is said and that I have a right in my own self to make up my own mind as to what is truth and what is fiction or rather a lie. Shucks, we can’t even keep our own children from going down a path that we know we would not. But to each his own. Diversity, it is a wonderful thing.
When I was just a young lad in my freshman year of high school, I had taken an elective course in this very subject. Not because someone told me I had to, nor because I thought it would be good for me to experience. See as I’ve said before I was raised Roman Catholic and in the community I grew up in, there were tensions between the Catholic’s and the Baptists and they were always at odds with each other, things like spare the rod not the child while the other would say spare the child and not the rod, and it effected the community as a whole. As an example I offer you this analogy, Catholic children did not associate with Baptist children outside of the class room unless it was behind our parents backs, or unless you grew up in a house hold that was taught tolerance. As for the other faiths within the community, they just kinda sat back and let the two largest groups of “faith” go at each other. Then from the pulpit they would make their case for their belief. Then there were the community functions that were supposed to be community oriented. It seemed that the only time things would settle down was during the major school sporting event when we would come together to route for our home team, that is unless we where playing against each other.
I know, I’ve gone off Que a bit, then again have I? When I said it was biblical I meant what I said, part of the universal or another word for universal is Catholic, praying of the “hail Mary” comes from the book of Luke chapter 1, verse 28 through 48 and it is in this part of scripture that the “universal / Catholic, prayer known as the “Hail Mary” is thought to have come from and it has been around since the year 1263, maybe even further back, no one is for sure. What is fact is that it was being said several times a day in and around the third century by the Franciscan monks of the time.
So again my question is, that if the Catholic Church being the most powerful and domineering religion in the world at that point in world history gives us some indication as to how long and how many people through the years have been reciting this little known prayer. Than how can you say it should not be recited or said. I know, Jesus taught us how to pray and with what words to say, that doesn’t mean however that all prayer is wrong and should not be said. For if what you say should be the way and I would say that most of the other 33 plus thousand denominations would concur, than that would make our ancestors Hippocrates. For that would be out right un-tolerable with the church law of the day. Just like Jesus’ teachings were in direct conflict with Jewish law.
What folks seem to misunderstand the most about this prayer is that we who recite it are not praying to Mary but asking her to pray for us. Here are a few facts, not that many of you who may read this will agree with it is however no never mind to me. For we are all subject to our own judgment before the the Father and Christ defending us through intersession on our behalf. It is still after all, “FACT”.
The meaning of the Hail Mary prayer as I have already eluded to, is to ask Mary to pray for us. She is immaculate. She also has never displeased God, and she gave birth to God the Son who had become flesh by the power of the Holy Ghost. This as you pointed out was done by the will of God and that He used Mary for
His purpose as He even still today uses us to do His work in this world.
Don’t take my comments the wrong way, it is not my intent to pick a fight or start my own personal Holy War…(Funny thing about those last two words in this statement, I don’t ever recall the two words ever being used by Christ in His teachings and nor in my studies of the Kuran do the words appear together in the same sentience). But what is another fact is that what may be the “hope of the world from killing each other off, is the blessed mother of Christ, who is the Holy Mother of God. How can I say such a thing you maybe asking, it is almost sacrilegious that I would even imply such a statement. Well folks It’s the Gods truth and I shall not apologize for it either.
If I’m not mistaken the blessed mother in reference to the birth of Jesus who also being recognized as the King of the Jews and Him ruling over the house of David forever is mentioned several times. I think I read or heard somewhere, that she may be the saving grace of humanity yet once again, for she is mentioned more than 30 times in the book of Islam. Although as with several Christian faiths, I’m sure there are those in the Islamic faith that would disagree with these facts as well…Ohhhhya, that’s whats going on right this very minute isn’t it? Disagreement on the spiritual plain.
Folks from all faiths, beliefs and or religion need to learn to accept change and tolerance and quite listening to doctrine, but instead, learn theology, for it is diversification that will aid us in our tomorrows.
Well folks thanks and may God bless you and again thank you for your comments, I appreciate you as well. As for other folks that will differ just to differ, then I just hope you are not right, for if you are, than there is little hope for mankind, ever! But…:) I believe in two very important sayings and I have taken some liberty here because it is instilled into my heart and sole and that being, as for me and my house we shall serve the Lord for he is the truth the light and the way, for a house divided cannot stand…the latter part being from the books of Matthew, 12:25, Mark, 3:25 and Luke, 11:17…for are we to believe these three men of God are wrong, Nay, I say for they are only quoting God, aren’t they…?
Sincerely, the Lord Jesus’ humble servant to humanity,
Msgr. Andrew R. M. Manley DD. O.S.M. Chaplain
Sister Hannas comment,
with interest I was reading your defenting about Maria. First I want to let you knwo that I appriciate you much!
But I would like to say, that Maria is not a the Holy Woman as the catholic church is painting her. I remember that Jesus himself pointed out that everyone that does HIS will is his mother and brother and sister and so on, as you know. This he said in Canaa. Anyway, we as born again christian have only ONE MEDITATOR and this is JESUS, isnt he?
Your argue that we can call upon her in our need. And this is what we sould nt do, because she will not help us she is just a saint as everybopdy else now in heaven.
GOD used this wonderful woman at HIS Time for HIS purpose and so he did it with the different other men and woman too. Mary had to fullfill a Holy Task, yes and GOD will honor her for this. BUT she is NOT able to help us. If we believe she can, than; I see it from the WORD of GOD, we will do Idolotry!
Of cause you can and we can appriciate her as the Mother of the Saviour, but that s all, isnt it?
Great to know you and may the LORD of Heaven and EARTH bless you with Freedom and pour out all the wisdom and Knowledge you may need for your Ministry!
Much blessings from Germany! Hanna
Doctor Henry, President of the A.O.C.I.
Interesting Article Dr. Manley. I think I understand your article and to be honest, I don’t think anyone has ever put it this way. Mary was and is the mother of God (Jesus)…..hum….when you stop to think about this, some of the points you make start to make sense. In addition, I also know that YOU DO NOT BELIEVE OR HAVE YOUR ASSURANCE OF SALVATION IN MARY, so that is refreshing.
Thanks for challenging our minds here.
I am not arguing anything that you have said, for I know this already. I am not talking about salvation, or healing, or anything like that. Yes I know that Christ is the comforter but, the way this statement was made was in my answer to someones question dealing with a family being torn apart, by actions of other members of this family. The person was stating a fact that was happing in regards to the emotional stress that her mother was going through. In the way that the situation was tearing her heart apart from the hurtful things being said about their family. This response was meant as a way to help the mother and others deal with the stress of the accusations.
The blessed mother suffered immensely, because of the accusations of those that lied and manipulated facts to justify the end means for the crucifixion of her son our savior Jesus Christ. I do believe that by calling on the saints from time to time, we can draw into a deeper relationship with our own spirituality, which when you think about it, is a major problem with society today that is that we are not deeply faithful in our beliefs. There are many other faiths in our world that are more devoted to their beliefs than we so called Christians are about the our relationship with the Holy Trinity.
We all have a purpose on this planet we call home. That also went for those that came before us, and it will go for those that come after us as well. As an example to this statement I will refer to the Bible itself, words written by others on events of their day, which we today still hold true and dear to our hearts and directly responsible for our salvation and guidance on how we should live and treat others. This is a fact throughout history of the world, even today when a commentary is made or an editorial is published in regards to religious beliefs it can move the masses into action.
There is no difference today nor yesterday nor tomorrow as for what people will have to go through in order to get through a tough situation, but yet never forgetting that love and wisdom, compassion and sympathy are gifts that Father has give to each and everyone in the world, but that there are those that do not use these gifts.
If knowledge is power and there is power in the word of God through the writings of the Holy Bible, than how can my statement be untrue. Do ministers not manipulate the words of the bible to fit their sermons or express their point by quoting bits and pieces to fit the need of a situation, and yet taking the true intent of those scriptures to the extreme of their meaning? I know that when I lose something, I say a small prayer to St. Anthony to help guide me to finding that lost item and there it is, and when I was a fireman, I prayed not only to God but also to Saint Florian and to St. Michael for protection when I was in security and bodyguard work.
How is this a wrong thing, when we as a culture of Christians and non Christians celebrate holidays like, Valentines day, Halloween and All saints day or even our national day of prayer. The fact remains that people will cry out for help when the need arises and mostly they cry out to God, when they should be crying out to Jesus, yet Jesus doesn’t get offended.
For is it not true that the only unforgivable sin is blaspheme against the Holy Spirit? Then for sure the Holy Trinity will not mind us to seek the comfort of the blessed mother if it helps us to remember who she was, or is, that is to say the mother of God, bringing us back full circle to where God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit want us in the first place and that is to have them first in our lives, first in our thoughts, and first in the words off the tip of our tongues?
So no brother I am not arguing with you nor am I going to debate the issue, I am a non-denominational chaplain, and I do as the spirit of God commands me, just as he has done with me in writing the response to you with this message.
God bless you and your ministry, and may you bring 100,000 souls to the alter for the Holy Trinity to be glorified and praised from now through eternity. Amen
Rev.Fr. Msgr. Andrew R. M. Manley D.D. Chaplain
And the comment by me that started it all…
The topic in this statement is the Virgin Mother. Although I was raised Catholic, I am first and foremost a born-again Christian, it is that ” I understand and except many different faiths and their beliefs, we can draw from anyone of them at anytime”.
It is biblical and it doesn’t have to be just a Catholic thing or any other denominational thing. If it shows the love and respect that Christ tried to show us and if the angels and the saints were good enough for Christ to call on or God sending them to him, then why does it have to be any other way. It doesn’t.
We all are God fearing and Jesus loving and Holy Spirit blessed Christians, it doesn’t matter to me what church you belong to or belonged to, as long as you except Jesus Christ as your savior and that you believe that he is the son of God and that all things are possible for him. Not impossible.
So I am saying here and now that the blessed mother should be called upon in our hour and time of need and suffering. If God can call upon her for service then so should we.
When we hurt our selves, even when we are older, do we not many times cry out for our mortal mothers? So now that we are Born-Again Christians, that means to me that the Blessed Mother is also our mother, she is our spiritual mother and she is with the Father and the Son and all the saints, RIGHT?
To me some, not all but some traditions, are good and should not be forgotten, the premise with this ministry is the motto of the Universal Life Church which is a non-denominational church and body of clergy from all kinds of backgrounds and beliefs but that doesn’t matter as long as you “do what you know is right”, and I feel it is right and just to give respect to the Virgin Mother, Mary. AMEN !
I’m not chastising anyone here, I’m merely making a point that it is fitting and proper to call on the Holy Mother of Christ in our time of need as well as to Christ himself.
Rev.Fr. Msgr. A.R.M.Manley D.D. Chaplain…